We require a giant, player-based push towards promoting a better community.

[AceeBlueEagle]

Originally Posted by Vyldan

The Guild Wars public community is in bad shape. Who's fault is it?

Here is the crux of the problem and guess what, it is outside of Anet's control.

Study: College Students More Narcissistic

The standardized inventory, known as the NPI, asks for responses to such statements as "If I ruled the world, it would be a better place," "I think I am a special person" and "I can live my life any way I want to."


It's a me, me, me generation that completely disregards the impact or feelings of others. The in-game behavior simply demonstrates what most people are like in real life. The only way to change that behavior is for the person to change.

[bungusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

I agree.

The game itself is great, but its sad that they don't provide better support to raise a better community standard. More happy players = a much better game experience.

You're not improving community interaction by giving us bonus weekends and the occasional skill buff...

I beg to disagree, I joined many many farm teams during double cantha drop weekend. Some areas in the game that were deserted were all of a sudden crowded with people yelling: lfg!!!!

[Clone]

Originally Posted by Vyldan

This is the obvious neglegance towards the Party Search Window. The poor new feature is absolutely ignored! Why? Are people not trading? Wait, no! People are still spamming in Local! Is nobody in the outpost there to do the mission? Wrong again! People are still spamming for parties in complete disarray! What in the world is wrong here? Let's look at another problem.

If you're concerned about trade spam, try getting Anet to impliment a viable auction system. The party search simply doesn't cut it. And even if it did, what are you going to do while you're standing around in town with items for sale in the trade tab? Sit there like a rock, or advertise in the trade chat too? Until there is a way to put an item up for sale and leave town or leave the computer without needing you to be present to submit and accpet the transactions, you'll have spam.

The same goes for looking for someone to fill out the party. Sure, you can put up the advert and sit there in silence or talking amongst your group. But will the monk that just came in look at the party search window first, or the message that just went by "Need healer for mission and we go 7/8"?

[Vyldan]

Arrrrgh.

Like I said, do not get me started on Farming. You're blatantly missing the point of the topic, here. If you're going to respond, then please, please read every post thoroughly, and please stay on track. I am not here to whine and say that Farming is the spawn of the Devil, and the entire community is ungodly. I am not trying to claim that I know perfectly well what is wrong with everyone that is not me. If you do not have anything reasonable or on-topic to contribute, then you are simply making things difficult and confusing by involving your immediate thoughts on the matter. Foresight, people! Read, read!

[Keithark]

I have very little problem in game, but then again I have been working on my ignore list for 7 months and finaly got it in good shape. My suggestion, start a thread on here and post screenies then we all can ignore the a-holes and they will no longer be an issue. (my ignore list is so long I can go to LA D1 and not have any spam at all sometimes)

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Those who SELFLESSLY dedicate their lives to curing society's ills are saints. I am not one of them. That being said:

It saddens me to see so many of the posts in this forum containing presumptions about the nature of the Community as a whole based primarily on their own limited experience. I am not flaming them; we all do this to a greater or lesser degree. I see 5 arctic foxes, I assume all foxes are white -- until I see a red one. Few of us have traveled so extensively that we know what percentage of foxes in what habitats are what color. When it comes to the complex nature of people and communities, our individual views are even more limited, by our own prejudices, wants, needs, desires, and our own unique experiences and perspective. That which you see on local chat and the actions of people in PUGs that you have been part of are but the tip of the iceberg that is the Guild Wars Community. To base your opinion of the Community as a whole on those things would be like basing your opinion of New York City on the appearance of Time's Square (as so many do, lol).

From my own, admittedly limited, perspective, I have found that, just as in "real life", kindred souls abound, if I take the trouble to communicate, being kind and leaving my judgmental self-righteousness behind. In Guild Wars, my experience has been generally positive, and I suggest that those who are unhappy with things as they are look inward as well as outward.

Wo Tan Ki, Ranger, Knights of Shadowpeak (KoS)

[Jetdoc]

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

-Trade spamming in general chat isn't the problem, but a symptom

-Decrease in pick-up-groups aren't the problem, but a symptom

-Player population gaps across the three chapters isn't the problem, but a symptom

Some of my ideas that might help:

-Give player in-game trade a home so it doesn't have to "accost people on the streets" as much as it does now.

-Work to reverse trends that discourage people from grouping and interacting with each other

-Don't expand the universe in ways that diminishes current population centers and crossroads

I agree with some of the "symptoms" Kuldebar describes above. Yes, the community aspect of the game is hurt by the number of jerks that a "no monthly fee" game like Guild Wars is prone to having, but I think the symptoms described above definite aggravate the problem.

A-Net can only do so much to control player behavior - but they do have the ability to provide an environment that is conducive to bringing the "good" out in the non-jerk players to help counteract the negativity they generate.

[brokenmonkey]

We do not need everyone to read this thread, they're is a saying that you can sum ALL OF THIS IN.


" What goes around, comes around." Be kind, nice, happy, helpful in game to other people, and you shall receive the same respect and mood back at you eventually.

Examples: Give a key to a player who needs a key in battle.
Help a player who is requesting help, or an answerer. Kindly ask people to trade in trade channel( Do not Spam this one.)

In the long run, you will warm peoples heart on how nice your were to them, and they soon will show the same respect and kindness. (Unless they are the"5 year old who buys a game plays it for 2 weeks, quits, and buys a new game".)


Just my view on it..


PS: I expect Zinger314 to flame me for this, knowing her/his attitude on most things..

[TabascoSauce]

Originally Posted by AceeBlueEagle

Here is the crux of the problem and guess what, it is outside of Anet's control.

Study: College Students More Narcissistic

The standardized inventory, known as the NPI, asks for responses to such statements as "If I ruled the world, it would be a better place," "I think I am a special person" and "I can live my life any way I want to."


It's a me, me, me generation that completely disregards the impact or feelings of others. The in-game behavior simply demonstrates what most people are like in real life. The only way to change that behavior is for the person to change.

Apologies to the OP if this is not where he wanted the thread to go. I quoted this because I think it is true, with the compounding factor of anonymity.

A neighborhood BBall game has rage quitters, but they are in a small community where their actions are remembered. In Guild Wars, the community is too large for that social correction mechanism to work. We are a nameless faceless millions strong horde with short-term memory problems.

I think that the posters who say that the community has to police itself are idealistic. It is like the study quoted above, where people say "If I was in charge things would be better", you would think that they would already be "model citizens", and as evidenced in this thread, many already do.

Perhaps they are, perhaps they are not. There are enough anecdotal stories about bad PUGs that a percentage of those people who say they are model citizens have, lets say, slipped occasionally.

Please note that I do not claim to be a model citizen. I have had accidental disconnects from my ISP, and I have quit teams that obviously had no chance of success in both PvP and PvE.

BUT, there are alternatives.

Anyone play Asherons Call? They had a patronage system there, and it was a very different experience there for me. When I joined that game, I found an awesome patron who gave me topnotch magical gear for my level, and showed me how to play and win. My success was his success because of the patronage, where he got a percentage of my earned experience. Not taking away from my totals, but in addition to my own.

This chain bring me to my point. Guild wars is not Asheron's Call. Should they change Guild Wars to be more like it? I'd regretfully have to say No, because that would fundamentally change Guild Wars, and we are not here to fight a common foe, because we are all foes in PvP.

There are only so many ways to design a fork, and they are all pretty darn similar. Competitive game = competitive players.

That same attitude is prevalent for PvE too. You see the howling and screaming when any suggestion is made to make PvE easier? Oh man, PvP has a paid unlock everything option, and scream when PvE might get love too for easier collection of skills.

This game does not encourage players to want a more level playing field, because it makes their PvP experience harder. Players with more skills and options = more competition. PvPers hate that idea, because there is no incentive to beat better opponents. They get the same faction and rewards, up to and including the Favor of the Gods, whether their opponents are skilled and drilled computer athletes, or rejects from the Rugrats cartoon.

We are swimming against the tide to try and change the social aspects of Guild Wars. The environment rewards those who play for optimal efficiency. That does not include politeness, or helping anyone else.

See all the threads about PUGs suffering because with heroes now, those who can win do not need to PUG so those who are left in PUGs cannot succeed on their own and need the help. That is true altruism, handicapping yourself to help others. And it does not happen much here is competitive land.

So to recap, 1) we have no social cohesion because the community is too large to allow it, 2) players already claim to be model citizens so asking them to be nicer results in the flame war you saw in the first 20 posts, and 3) the game is competitively based so there is no in-game mechanism to reward altruistic behavior whatsoever, resulting in the community being the way it is today.

To get what you want requires change(s) to the game.

To quote the guy on the radio, "not a sermon, just a thought".

Thx!
TabascoSauce

[wsmcasey]

To the OP: I'll stop farming on the day you buy the rest of my fissure armor set. Deal?


It might be un-necessary to have FoW armor, but it becomes "necessary" to farm for gold and ectos if you want to purchase that armor. I have a choice, Spend a few months farming to get my armor, or do quests and missions and never get the armor I want.

Actually, farming drives down the price of items, especially green items.

Totem axe green is a prime example. It was over farmed and the price dropped drastically within just a few days of its release. Now everyone can afford to have a Totem axe. Exactly how is that a bad thing???

[BenjZee]

i'm not a bad guy actually...come to think of it even though theres alot of jerks out there, i will still give tips about playing and suggesting the dos and don'ts.

I have to admit i don't use the party window that often as i usually just click on a party with nearly a full group and invite them. Not everyone there are jerks ...just the other day i asked politly for some account storage money and the person paid me what seemed to be all the money on their character's inventory.
The issue of trust is raised; how can you trust an online player? Ofcourse theres alot of people that will scam ...but come on its only a game. I wouldn't trust anyone wen i first played as i was scared of my like 1 platinum being stolen.
The other day i was in tyria with my new character and i got called a noob by some lvl 20 wammo...he seemed to be so proud of the fact he was lvl 20 with 3 gold hammers (not max). i said i had a whole bag (which my mule did) and he started calling me a noob becuase obviouslyt lvl 8s cant have. I explained that he didn't have to beleve me especially wen i was new i wouldn't beleve most people who sed they had 5 lvl 20 characters.

Just face the fact there wherever you go in the world (real or online) your face jerks. If you want to be one...thats your fault..or just decide to be good...its not gunna hurt.

Farming: i don't mind the economy and farming...i think it's interesting how people come up with all the builds and stuff and new ways. The game would be pretty boring if prices and stuff didn't change. I dont really farm but i find doin quests rewarding enough.

The trade window usually dosent get used but i do point that out to people in a polite way and suggest to use it all the time. you probably won't be able to stop it

[freekedoutfish]

Im thinking you've blown this way out of proportion. The state of the community isnt that bad. Its hardly dieing and its hardly disasterious.

GWs has a far better community to it then alot of other MMOs. Its alot easier to find a party in GWs then it is in WoW for example. Having played WoW for about 2 months now, I have done most of it solo.

In GWs, you generally end up in a group within a few hours of playing for one reason or another. Missions being the main one, because you simple cant progress if you dont complete them, and alot need PUGs to do that.

GWs, strong storylines are its winning aspects and its helps force people to PUG unlike completely open ended games like WoW. So I dont see why people go on and on and on that the community is dieing when we have one of the best online communities there is.

The only issues are trading and the attitudes of some players.

[Ritual del Fuego]

Originally Posted by Vyldan

Arrrrgh.

Like I said, do not get me started on Farming. You're blatantly missing the point of the topic, here. If you're going to respond, then please, please read every post thoroughly, and please stay on track. I am not here to whine and say that Farming is the spawn of the Devil, and the entire community is ungodly. I am not trying to claim that I know perfectly well what is wrong with everyone that is not me. If you do not have anything reasonable or on-topic to contribute, then you are simply making things difficult and confusing by involving your immediate thoughts on the matter. Foresight, people! Read, read!

If you don't want to get started on farming...then don't bring it up. You can't "throw in" your opinion on something as an afterthought to a otherwise well thought out message and not expect people who don't agree to respond.

That being said, as for the message I think you are trying to get across, online role playing games are going to mirror real life in most ways, that is why a lot of people like them. Just like real life, there are going to be a-holes, saints, and otherwise normal people. The only difference is that these traits can be magnified since people are sitting behind a computer screen so some of the normal societal deterrents and pressures don't come in to play. Someone can sit and ridicule people without the "threat" of repercussions for the most part. Bottom line is, just like a real life community, there are going to be people of all types and there is not much you can do except be yourself and find others that share your desires/thoughts on the game. Isn't this what we do in real life? Find friends and others who we share interests with and spend time with them. After all, it is called Guild Wars....

[lakatz]

Hi Vyldan...

I think I know how you can eliminate your problem with the community or at least diminish it considerably.

You are talking in the plural. You are saying "WE have a problem." The thing with that kind of thinking is that you are taking on responsibility for ALL of us (whether any of us turned it over to you or not). And that's HUGE.

Now if you rephrase your statement to say "I have a problem with the community..." then you're making a much more honest statement and taking responsibility for yourself only, and that would take a heck of huge load off your shoulders.

Furthermore, for the record, to help alleviate some of the load you're bearing, I hereby officially absolve you of all responsibility for my feelings about the community. I can speak for myself. And speaking for myself, I am quite happy with the GW community (including you) in all its vast diversity, and with GW in all its evolutions. The dev team is made up of some of the most talented (and receptive) artists and programmers in the business, and they're doing an excellent job. I, not being the pro that all of them are, know better than to think I know better than they do about what's best for the community and/or the game (especially since in all our diversity our wants are far too vast to accommodate them all). And I am quite happy to watch and wait for the changes that they decide to make.

It's all good, and I love it all.

[Kuldebar Valiturus]

We probably need to clarify some terms.

The community isn't bad, and Guild Wars doesn't have an inordinate number of jerks compared to other games. People are people, etc.

The problem with the community, that people usually mean when they call it bad, is that the community is not very well connected. It's not a close knit community by online game standards.

Now, I have played many online games and at the risk of making comparisons, let me say this:

Most online games have a "home town feel". You see the same people everyday, whether you know them or not. Familiar faces and names go a long way to creating a solid basis for community. Not the only thing, mind you.

In Guild Wars, we have a fractured community due to game design: districts, instanced explorable areas, linear mission paths, etc. So, out of the starting gate, Guild Wars has a handicap in this area. The game design is revolutionary but it does have its drawbacks.

Anything added on top of the mix that detracts further from building a community just serves to fracture it further. It is open for debate, but I believe that these things have a counter-community impact:

-Heroes, improved Henchmen

-lack of Trade House Functions

-the "expanding universe" effect"

And, Guilds, strong guilds are much desired, but even guilds are swimming up stream when dealing with varied memberships spread across 3 campaigns and instanced areas.

ANet needs to start bolstering its weak spots instead of stressing them further.

The whole of any virtual world is a social experiment, people are people, after all, and they react in certain ways to things.

It's not that Guild Wars players are "bad people", it's just that we have a dysfunctional community structure. Some vulnerabilities were there from the game's release date, but others were introduced as the game changed.

The last surviving and thriving part of the community is trade, there is nothing wrong with that...but there should be more to community than that...

Any community will suffer some impact if the equivalent of a "crack house" opens up with in it on every street corner. <don't take my analogy too far, please >

For a community to thrive, people must have a mutually beneficial relationship with other people.

When people start closing the metal window shutters, triple locking their doors and never going to the city park, community evaporates into a survival situation: you do what you need to do to get by. And, that's not always conducive with civility.

[Kook~NBK~]

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I think that the posters who say that the community has to police itself are idealistic. It is like the study quoted above, where people say "If I was in charge things would be better", you would think that they would already be "model citizens", and as evidenced in this thread, many already do.

/raise hand Idealist #1 right here! And you know what? It works. Last night I spent a couple hours in Kamadan Dist.3 (there were 7 or 8 districts up at the time). When I saw people trading in local, I asked them to please use the trade channel. When I saw spamming, I asked them to please stop. Within 15 minutes, local chat had gotten cleaned up and there was hardly any spam in the trade channel. I don't know how many people left, but many of the spammers stuck around. A couple people apologized for spamming and/or not using trade chat. Only ONE person, out of everyone who came into the district, was a complete jerk and ignored requests to stop his BS - Hope he never gets that white dye ! SS & report sent, NP.

Now, trying to get a conversation started (no politics or religion, TYVM!) was a bit harder.

[BDZeres]

Personally speaking, I have met many nice people through GW, all of them through a) my guild b) PUG'in FoW, UW or missions back in Prophecies. I realize some people may not be as lucky as I have been (I've met my share of idiots too). I would like to venture that the reason for my success in meeting and remaining in contact with good people is voice com software (vent/ts). I have found that it is a lot easier to get to know someone just by making small chat while waiting for the group to get going. Usually, all it takes is for you to make the first move. The other thing that helped me was that I consistently included those with compatible personalities in my groups, even if it were at the expense of "guildies" who I may not have necessarily liked / known at all. I think it helped that my guild leader at the time was very involved in the guild in guild chat, teamspeak and with the general community through the forums, and the core of my guild was around the same age and were passionate about the game.

Trust me, intelligent, good-humored and skilled DO exist out there...
even in RA.

I find it surprising that some players who have replied to this post, who seem fine individuals, have not yet found a community outside these forums. Perhaps you should start a GW Guru forum guild?

[Kuldebar Valiturus]

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

/raise hand Idealist #1 right here! And you know what? It works. Last night I spent a couple hours in Kamadan Dist.3 (there were 7 or 8 districts up at the time). When I saw people trading in local, I asked them to please use the trade channel. When I saw spamming, I asked them to please stop. Within 15 minutes, local chat had gotten cleaned up and there was hardly any spam in the trade channel. I don't know how many people left, but many of the spammers stuck around. A couple people apologized for spamming and/or not using trade chat. Only ONE person, out of everyone who came into the district, was a complete jerk and ignored requests to stop his BS - Hope he never gets that white dye ! SS & report sent, NP.

Now, trying to get a conversation started (no politics or religion, TYVM!) was a bit harder.

Good points, and humor works really well too, as long as it's not at some one else's expense.

No doubt, people cope with the situations they are faced with. "Guardian Angels" and neighborhood watches crop up in the troubled communities to counter destructive elements. People seldom remember that there was a time when these things weren't necessary.

Some game mechanics that add dynamism and foster vitality within online game communities:

-strong player trade functions that allow players to easily market in-game resources

-player crafted goods that encourage the cooperation in the gathering of raw materials required for such production

-dynamic player group functions that allow for the inviting and replacing of party members while deployed so that player groups don't become "dead ends" if party members change for whatever reason

-non-instanced areas that allow for a large number of players to mingle socially while in a "combat" zone


Some of these items are not feasible due to game design limitations, but others could be implemented by ANet and would go a long way to helping the community.

By providing a framework, a community can grow. Think of it as an artificial reef that gives marine life a place to safely anchor and thrive.

[mtbucher]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

Those who SELFLESSLY dedicate their lives to curing society's ills are saints. I am not one of them. That being said:

It saddens me to see so many of the posts in this forum containing presumptions about the nature of the Community as a whole based primarily on their own limited experience. I am not flaming them; we all do this to a greater or lesser degree. I see 5 arctic foxes, I assume all foxes are white -- until I see a red one. Few of us have traveled so extensively that we know what percentage of foxes in what habitats are what color. When it comes to the complex nature of people and communities, our individual views are even more limited, by our own prejudices, wants, needs, desires, and our own unique experiences and perspective. That which you see on local chat and the actions of people in PUGs that you have been part of are but the tip of the iceberg that is the Guild Wars Community. To base your opinion of the Community as a whole on those things would be like basing your opinion of New York City on the appearance of Time's Square (as so many do, lol).

From my own, admittedly limited, perspective, I have found that, just as in "real life", kindred souls abound, if I take the trouble to communicate, being kind and leaving my judgmental self-righteousness behind. In Guild Wars, my experience has been generally positive, and I suggest that those who are unhappy with things as they are look inward as well as outward.

Wo Tan Ki, Ranger, Knights of Shadowpeak (KoS)

I especially like this reply. I normally wouldn't post in a thread like this, but I've read the whole thread, and a couple of things have grabbed me, and I (narrowmindedly) think it might help for others to hear from a red fox.

I am now farming FoW and UW to get Obsidian Armor for one of my chars, because I like the way it looks. No other reason.

When I trade I use the Search window, AND trade channel (only) because I want to increase my chances of someone who wants an item I have to see it. Basic advertising - more exposure equals more business.

I don't really care what is being spammed in outposts/ towns, because I don't go there to socialize. I socialize extensively within my guild and alliance. I purchased the game with my own money, use it within the rules and guidelines, and feel absolutely no obligation to add or detract from the greater GW community. I save altruism for RL.

The "PUG or not to PUG" issue is one I cannot resolve. Does it take longer and is more of a hassle to get through a mission with hero/henches or PUGs? On the one hand, you may need to fail the mission with your heros a few times until you can tweak your build and theirs to get through, which takes time. On the other hand, you can join a PUG which can take 15-30 mins to get together before entering the mission, and still fail honestly, or fail because of players quitting. For me it is not a question of community, rather efficiency.

I am an adult, and work full time. I don't have as much free time as some other players. When I do play, it is for total escape and relaxation. Just as I would not join a guild that requires a certain amount of faction farming per day, I would not play a game that requires a certain amount of "GW community development" per day. It doesn't say that that is a requirement on the box, so I bought it.

I love to hear what others think about this great game, that's why I read the Forums. I have never and probably will never ragequit, or drop out of a failing mission, or spam (other than in Trade Chat), or flame someone who didn't start it first.

But please respect my freedom to play the way I want to.

[Kuldebar Valiturus]

Originally Posted by mtbucher

... But please respect my freedom to play the way I want to.

Nice post. It's why I feel there needs to be a place at the table for everyone. And, we all have our own ways of enjoying the game.

"Farmers" get a lot of flack because they are part of the last surviving and lively areas of player interaction left within the game. Everyone sees the trade spam, and the prices for "hot" items everytime they look at chat while in an outpost. Farmers also get tarred with the same brush as gold sellers and botters, which is silly but predictable.